No start... No crank...Eco mode

Questions specifically about a Petrol powered Citroen C3 (usually engine or fuel related problems).
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My Name: ozc3

Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2004 (04)
Engine Size: 1.6 (16v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 80000
Trim Level: VTR+
Gearbox: SensoDrive
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD
Engine name: TU5 16-valve (110 PS)

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Wow
Thank you for an amazing job deconstructing the BSI..

I do have some questions that you may be able to assist me with.
Primarily, does the BSI talk/connect to the Engine ECU?

I ask this because none of the pinouts you've shown seem to indicate any sort of connection between the two units..
and...........my car is showing a communications fault to the ECU when doing a Lexia fault scan on the BSI.
Also saying the ECU is locked when interrogating the ECU via Lexia.
I'm thinking the ECU needs a handshake from the BSI after it has recognised the key etc, but this is not happening resulting in locked ECU..
Maybe a bad connection/wire from BSI to ECU

Car is a complete non goer at moment. No start... No crank...Eco mode...and transmission won't perform a config/reset.

Thanks and again great work..
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My Name: C3CAR

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Posts: 2610
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (02)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
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ozc3 wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:42 pm Wow
Thank you for an amazing job deconstructing the BSI..

I do have some questions that you may be able to assist me with.
Primarily, does the BSI talk/connect to the Engine ECU?

I ask this because none of the pinouts you've shown seem to indicate any sort of connection between the two units..

Yes, BSI and Engine ECU communicate for the immobiliser.

You won't see pinouts because the CAN/VAN BUS carries it all.

Check starter motor

Check Starter Fuse in the hidden MAXI fuse box

Check the battery is good enough to turn the starter.

No, you don't need the immo to pass before the engine turns over, but you do need immo to pass to get fuel injected and make it run.
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My Name: Ozvtr

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Posts: 936
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:31 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2003 (53)
Engine Size: 1.4 (8v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 80000
Trim Level: Other
Gearbox: Automatic PRND
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD
Engine name: TU3 (75 PS)
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
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ECO mode with a sensodrive can be a Catch 22. You cant start it until you get it out of ECO mode and you cant get it out of ECO mode until you start it! Try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6IetgiRZm4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEYk5CZNEtM

For some strange reason the sensodrive ECU gets a bee in it's bonnet and locks out the starter.
When you perform the above make sure the car is in neutral.

You must have a flashing '-' on the dash before the sensodrive will perform an initialization. This might require you to disconnect and re-connect the battery a number of times. I am not sure but it might not initialize while in ECO mode anyway. I know that trying to scan ECUs with the LEXIA while the car is in ECO mode can cause ECU read an write problems.

Can you give us a bit of a history of the car? Have you owned the car for a while and this just happened? Or have you just obtained the car in this condition?

If you have only just obtained the car in this condition, then the stored faults may be old and not currently relevant.

The engine ECU will show as 'locked' if it is not currently happy with the BSI and or key or it's not running. My guess is that because the car is in ECO mode the engine ECU is not 'matched' to the BSI. It's a bit difficult to explain but you have to get a lot of ducks in a row before the engine ECU will run the engine.

Turn the engine over and get it out of ECO mode first.
My Name: ozc3

Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2004 (04)
Engine Size: 1.6 (16v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 80000
Trim Level: VTR+
Gearbox: SensoDrive
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD
Engine name: TU5 16-valve (110 PS)

Post

Thanks for that input
Full disclosure at this point.
The car is actually a C2..(05/VTR)
So you can send me packing right now if you'd like.
I'd understand.

Its just that I'd exhausted all C2 resources but mainly that the C2 club is very thin on VTR/senso drives.
It is much more steered towards the sensible manual VTS variants.

But when I discovered the wonderful job that had been done on the BSI for the (ostensibly identical) C3,I thought I'd both acknowledge, thank and throw in a cheeky question or two to the author.
I suspect OZVTR might be my friend from here in Australia.. I partly pinched his user name when I was having to come up with a user name late last night. Apologies for that.
However he of all people would know my story/journey with this C2 is not a short one and it continues more out of sense of amusement and curiosity rather than getting the thing going..!!
My Name: ozc3

Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2004 (04)
Engine Size: 1.6 (16v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 80000
Trim Level: VTR+
Gearbox: SensoDrive
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD
Engine name: TU5 16-valve (110 PS)

Post

Well now that I think I have not been banished from the realm of the c3 ...
This is my long and somewhat tedious story.
Please feel free to vague out at any point..
But I do feel that any success or in-roads that I achieve can also assist the C3 community as there are that many similarities.
As I seem to be provisional member right now I'll post the whole blooming story..
Get a cup of tea!!

C2 the story thus far.

Bought car cheap with central locking issue.
Both doors deadlocked.
Climbed in through the drivers window for the 3 hour long drive home.
An hour in and one semi emergency brake later I got my first taste of the beeping snowflake.
No gears etc.
Did a few resets, then it worked..Home
Severed wires to central locking/any locking once I got into the doors and hot wired the locks open.
Car okish but gearbox very unreliable.
Fast forward ....

Fitted a replacement clutch actuator.
Installed and configured by my then Lexia.
Eco mode. No crank
Did the starter inhibitor bypass trick...It worked!!! car started and out of eco mode.
Performed transmission reset..

Now.. no throttle response/dead pedal
Replaced pedal. No go
Replaced throttle body...No go
Replaced double action fuel injection relay ..No go
Checked LHD to RHD throttle wire extension..No go
Removed and checked BSM and checked all grounds.
Reinstalled BSM Now NOTHING!!! Not starting, not even cranking..
Tried the inhibitor override trick (ensuring was in neutral).. motor turns over but no start and didn't shock it out of eco mode.


Checked and rechecked all possible connections
Tried all BSI resets..Nothing
ECU locked.
Tried all key recognition tricks. Nothing and in a Lexia loop. (to unlock ECU key needs to be matched.....key already matched message etc)

GAVE UP
Sold Lexia
Handed car to local guru
He had it almost 18 months..No success (although TBH I'm not sure how much time he did actually spend on it)
Reclaimed the car

Researched the hell out of things.
Replaced BSM ....Nothing
Bought new Lexia
ECU locked still.
Decided it may need a complete security set (matched BSI/key fob/ECU)
Eventually located a good donor set (donor car arrived to wreckers damaged but reportedly running)
Installed said set. Same story..
BSI interrogated not talking to ECU (permanent fault communications fault with engine management ECU)
KMs "covered" now reads 128000 not 112000 (expected that)
Transmission indicator "-" (not flashing)
Does not prompt the driver to apply brake before trying to start. (think that applied to previous security set)

Found BSI deconstruction on this site
Found Peugeot 206 wiring diagram (very similar)
Renewed vigour for the task
Today began to assertively expose all wiring looms for any broken or damaged wires...nothing obvious.

Noticed that "new" security set does not respond to interior central locking button (no relays heard).

Re-Replaced all swapped out components with original parts BSI/ECU/Key Fob/BSM...Now back to factory original. Clean slate
Interesting though Odometer still now showing 128000!! I was NOT expecting that. Guess once the KM number goes up the instrument cluster holds this as true..

Researched that the security/key fob/remote locking/transmitter receiver etc is handled by the Comm 2000 unit. behind the steering wheel.
But I couldn't find any record of the comm2000 being responsible for complete fail to proceed.
It seemed to be more about headlights coming on when indicating etc.
If the comm2000 is the main TX/RX for key recognition and transponder, surely this may be the culprit..

Prior to ALL this the car worked (albeit with no throttle response) before I pulled out the BSM.
Logic says that the original bits should still all work together..(at this point I'd be delighted with just a non operational throttle!!)
Also leaving the key in the ignition and opening the drivers door does not cause any beeping. Is this a function of disconnecting the door locks?
Car previously worked "fine" with all door lock wiring severed..

In most cases this car would have been binned..
I just object to being beaten by something that should be able to be sorted logically..
User avatar
My Name: C3CAR

Guru
Posts: 2610
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (02)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
Has thanked: 144 times
Been thanked: 88 times

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ozc3 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:31 pm Well now that I think I have not been banished from the realm of the c3 ...
I does look that way :lol:
ozc3 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:31 pm Odometer still now showing 128000!! I was NOT expecting that. Guess once the KM number goes up the instrument cluster holds this as true..
This is correct. The odo can only go up and never down. The higher number is always taken as true and that higher number overwrites the lower copy.
ozc3 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:31 pm Researched that the security/key fob/remote locking/transmitter receiver etc is handled by the Comm 2000 unit. behind the steering wheel.
But I couldn't find any record of the comm2000 being responsible for complete fail to proceed.
It seemed to be more about headlights coming on when indicating etc.
If the comm2000 is the main TX/RX for key recognition and transponder, surely this may be the culprit..
The COM2000 has the remote fob (lock/unlock) radio receiver and the signal is passed to the BSI for processing of the unlock code and relay activation for the door solenoids.

Key recognition for immobiliser is from the ring around the steering lock and the chip in the fob. This communicates via the COM2000 and to the BSI and Engine ECU to unlock the immobiliser.

Prior to ALL this the car worked (albeit with no throttle response) before I pulled out the BSM
There are different versions of BSM and BSI, you need to have the one that matches the features of your car. Be careful when selecting different BSM/BSI+Engine ECU from that originally fitted.
Logic says that the original bits should still all work together..
While I would tend to agree, this is not always the case I have found in the real world of the C3. The problem with the C3 and quite probably the C2 is the plug/socket connections. Just unplugging and replugging can change something from not working to working and it happens the other way too. There is a topic on Improving poor ECU plug connections and conductivity for the Citroen C3 that covers the ECU connections, but the problem isn't restricted to the Engine ECU.

I just object to being beaten by something that should be able to be sorted logically..
Good Luck :D
My Name: ozc3

Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2004 (04)
Engine Size: 1.6 (16v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 80000
Trim Level: VTR+
Gearbox: SensoDrive
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD
Engine name: TU5 16-valve (110 PS)

Post

I agree with your implied diffusion of my comments ..
What makes the comm2000 a suspect if it too worked before I removed/displaced the BSM ..?

It too was functional
But what is left.?
if wiring is good, swapping in previously/matching working components and then all should go!
This would have to be the most annoying car I have EVER owned...
User avatar
My Name: C3CAR

Guru
Posts: 2610
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (02)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
Has thanked: 144 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Post

ozc3 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:38 pm But what is left.?
if wiring is good, swapping in previously/matching working components and then all should go!
I would suspect the plug/sockets on everything you have disconnected at some point.

That is the one thing you don't swap out, but it can change and is very difficult to test.

Oh, and are there any faults stored? Did you get your lexia back? Use lexia to read for codes and this may help you along. I know it helps me :)
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My Name: Ozvtr

Moderator
Posts: 936
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:31 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2003 (53)
Engine Size: 1.4 (8v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 80000
Trim Level: Other
Gearbox: Automatic PRND
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD
Engine name: TU3 (75 PS)
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 250 times

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Well Well Well...

How are things in the land of the politicians?

I thought you gave up on this dead horse?

We had a discussion on whether to let C2 owners on this site but after the demise of the C2 club site we took pity on them.

The BSM controls Power to the engine ECU.
There are 5 lines going from the BSM to the engine ECU. At least 4 are power, I'm not sure what the last one is for. There is one independent line of power for the two oxy sensors. Odds are you are not getting power through one or more of those power lines (to the engine ECU). If you have changed the BSM then the next step is the maxi fuses. After that is the VAN BUS from the BSI to the BSM. But according to you at that stage you hadn't changed the BSI.

The CAN BUS goes through the ABS module, so is that OK? Its in parallel with the gearbox ECU, so it shouldn't matter if that's OK on not.

There are electrical diagrams on this site http://www.c3manuel.com/ use Chrome to translate it.
This is the one you are looking for http://www.c3manuel.com/injection_allumage-177.html
I don't know if you have seen them before?
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