Complete engine swap Couple of questions - Lexia, fuel pump etc

Questions specifically about a Petrol powered Citroen C3 (usually engine or fuel related problems).
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Petrol engine related faults, like injectors, error codes, overheating.
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My Name: ECC3

Contributor
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:23 pm
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2003 (03)
Engine Size: 1.4 (8v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 91000
Trim Level: SX
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: TU3 (75 PS)

Post

Hi,

I posted a question a while ago about my '03 C3 1.4 8v whose cylinder head gasket is on the way out - thanks again for input on that.

Since posting, I came across an '05 C2 VTS which had been written off by a bash from what looks like a bit of scaffolding or something hitting the C pillar. All fine mechanically though, and going for pretty much the same money as a used, replacement 1.4 8v engine. So, I snapped it up with the view of transferring engine, box, driveline, brakes and suspension etc into the C3. I've got the C2 pretty much stripped out now. In terms of engine and electronics, I have the complete engine and box / drivetrain removed, along with:
  • Keys
  • Fusebox
  • ECU & other 'brains': BSI, BMS, ABS, Airbags
  • Instruments cluster
  • Petrol Cap
  • Driver's door lock
  • Steering colum with ignition switch
etc

The C3 doesn't have the original radio in it, so not worried about that.

I'm hoping that if I transfer everything into the C3 in a oner, it should all 'just work' without having to go and buy Lexia and get involved with that stuff. Could anyone let me know if it should just work or if I will have get Lexia hooked up to it too? Incidentally, the plan is to use the original C2 VTS exhaust, only with a lengthing piece added somewhere around the middle.
From folk who have done this before, is there anything I'm missing?

Also, could anyone help out with the following please:
  • Is it a pokier fuel pump in the C2 VTS than will be in the 1.4 8V C3? If so, I'll transfer that too.
  • Are the Brake servo and master cylinder the same across both cars?
  • Is there any interchangability between clutch covers / plates / release bearings between the two?
Thanks very much in advance! :) >>
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My Name: C3CAR

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Posts: 2621
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (02)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
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ECC3 wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:03 pm I'm hoping that if I transfer everything into the C3 in a oner, it should all 'just work' without having to go and buy Lexia and get involved with that stuff. Could anyone let me know if it should just work or if I will have get Lexia hooked up to it too?
Hi ECC3

I would say that 'yes' it should just work. If you have transferred all the electronic brains that talk to each other, you have it all covered.
My Name: ECC3

Contributor
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:23 pm
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2003 (03)
Engine Size: 1.4 (8v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 91000
Trim Level: SX
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: TU3 (75 PS)

Post

Brilliant - Thanks C3Car! :D
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My Name: Ozvtr

Moderator
Posts: 942
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:31 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2003 (53)
Engine Size: 1.4 (8v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 80000
Trim Level: Other
Gearbox: Automatic PRND
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD
Engine name: TU3 (75 PS)
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Has thanked: 36 times
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The VTS might have a fuel filter, in which case the fuel pump will be physically different (also the plumbing and tank).
To my knowledge all the petrol fuel pumps have 3bar regulator so they will all operate the same way. I wouldn't bother changing the fuel pump.
You might want to do a bit of research on the gearbox. The VTS gearbox is a close ratio, meaning it's quick off the line but tends to over rev on the top end. I have a C2 VTR (1.6I) and on the highway (here in Oz) doing 110KMH the poor thing is over revving and I don't think that's best for the economy (or longevity) of the engine. It does not have the close ratio box so the VTS would be even worse. If you only do town driving the VTS gearbox will be fine but if you do highway driving I would do a bit of research on the final drive of the gearbox for the 1.4I engine. I do not know if the gearbox on the TU3JP and the TU5JP4S are inter changeable. The AL4 auto gearbox is available for both engines so on the surface I would say they are.

Oops, just thought. You might not be able to get it registered with the standard brakes on it!!! You might need to upgrade to the vented disks on the front and solid on the rear because of the increased power. I do not know the law in the UK. You could just remove the system from the VTS, for the most part it's compatible. There might be problems with the master cylinder and ABS ECU (fluid volumes ETC). You are in uncharted territory.

Just looked again and saw you intended to transfer the brakes but as I said there still might be trouble lying in wait.
My Name: ECC3

Contributor
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:23 pm
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2003 (03)
Engine Size: 1.4 (8v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 91000
Trim Level: SX
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: TU3 (75 PS)

Post

Hey OzVTR - Thanks for this.

As it happens, I'm essentially reshelling the complete C2 VTS into the C3, so engine, gearbox, driveline, 'brains', suspension & brakes all as a oner. The idea behind it is that it should all be nicely balanced and just work A) at all, B) as a decent package to drive.

As to registering it, you can pretty much build more or less whatever you fancy in the UK so long as it passes an MoT (basic set of safety checks). There's the SVA (single Vehicle Approval) which kit cars do and I believe very heavily modified stuff might have to go through, but that's still a reasonably basic set of tests as far as I'm aware...
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My Name: Ozvtr

Moderator
Posts: 942
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:31 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2003 (53)
Engine Size: 1.4 (8v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 80000
Trim Level: Other
Gearbox: Automatic PRND
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD
Engine name: TU3 (75 PS)
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 252 times

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Technically if you do not use OEM specification equipment (here) the car is "modified". Grey areas are consumables, like oil, break pads, brake discs, oil filters, windscreen wiper blades (you get the picture) and after market parts like tie rod ends, ball joints, radios and water pumps. There is no requirement for those parts to pass OEM spec but under the law they should be "fit for purpose"! If you change things like engines and brakes by using OEM equipment for a like model(like what you are doing) then that's OK. If you change something like brake callipers to after market (like Brembos) or a different type of shock absorber, then the car is modified and needs a compliance plate attached to it. If you upgrade the engine then the brakes need to be updated too, If that's what the OEM did. For example if you went from a 1.1 to a 1.4, you wouldn't need to upgrade the brakes because the OEM didn't. If you were to just change the engine from 1.4 to 1.6 without upgrading the brakes (as the OEM did) it would not pass inspection (if you ever got it inspected).
Having said that, you can do anything you like in life...as long as you don't get caught! :roll:
Please keep us informed.
My Name: ECC3

Contributor
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:23 pm
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2003 (03)
Engine Size: 1.4 (8v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 91000
Trim Level: SX
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: TU3 (75 PS)

Post

Hi,

I don't see there being a problem with it being allowed back on the road but will certainly keep this post up to date with progress!
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My Name: Ozvtr

Moderator
Posts: 942
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:31 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2003 (53)
Engine Size: 1.4 (8v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 80000
Trim Level: Other
Gearbox: Automatic PRND
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD
Engine name: TU3 (75 PS)
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 252 times

Post

LOL! By "here" I meant Queensland, Australia. I didn't realise my stats didn't say where I was. :oops:
My Name: ECC3

Contributor
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:23 pm
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2003 (03)
Engine Size: 1.4 (8v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 91000
Trim Level: SX
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: TU3 (75 PS)

Post

Hi again people,

Could I ask another question about this C2 VTS into C3 1.4 swap please?

I've got a lot of it done now - the engine, box & drivetrain are in along with most electrics etc. Just the steering column, airbags control module and driver's door lock to do on that side of things. The C2 exhaust is even more-or-less on too, after some judicious extension around the rear axle area.

However, back on electronics, this '05 C2 VTS had a little off-square / rectangular, aluminium control module located on the floor behind the handbrake / under the centre console. It has a single 'lozenge' shaped connector that goes into it. I think it might be something to do with ESP, but I'm not sure. The issue is that the C3 doesn't have this and - somewhat disappointingly - doesn't have the wiring for it. I've chased the wiring through on the C2 and it's separate all the way to the front, and along under the passenger side (in a RHD car) carpet after which it makes its way up the A-pillar and seems to join the fat, main loom which goes through the bulkhead. It appears to join this fat, main loom somewhere beside or above the glovebox-located fusebox - details being hidden behind that fusebox's upper cover. I can't see a plug anywhere through which this separately packaged and 'sheathed' cable bundle joins this main loom. Two of the 4 wires involved in the little separate run to the behind the handbrake control module are a yellow single cable and a blue single cable wound together into a twisted pair. If memory serves the other two are a purpley pink and a green. Following the 'twisted pair' it seems to continue in the main loom once through the bulkhead and into the engine bay along then down into the ABS control module. Looking on the ('03, 1.4 8v) C3, I don't see a yellow / blue 'twisted pair' making its way to the ABS unit.

Can anyone advise on whether it's going to be possible (without ripping out the C3 loom and rewiring it) to retrofit this control module? I guess I'm really wondering if anyone knows if the C3 is likely to have 'stubs' somewhere behind the dash where the C2 sub-loom joins the main one which I could connect the control-module sub-loom to if I whip it out of the C2?

If I don't put this extra control module from the C2 in, does anybody know what kind of wobbly the transplanted-into-the-C3 C2 control system is likely to throw? I'm hoping someone will know what the module is and what the control system does about not being able to speak to it - I guess it has to handle a unit failure gracefully, so am hoping it will atleast run OK, albeit with some kind of warning light.

Any input would be very much appreciated!

Thanks yet again!
Ewen
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My Name: Ozvtr

Moderator
Posts: 942
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:31 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2003 (53)
Engine Size: 1.4 (8v)
Fuel Type: Petrol
Mileage: 80000
Trim Level: Other
Gearbox: Automatic PRND
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD
Engine name: TU3 (75 PS)
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 252 times

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Yep, that's one of the trouble in wait I was afraid of.
Your C2 VTS has ESP.
There are three main parts to the ESP system. The yaw rate sensor (the silver box near the hand brake), the ABS module and the COMS2000. Also the associated wiring and the button on the dash.
Put simply, the COMS2000 tells the ABS module where the steering is pointed and the yaw rate sensor tells the ABS module where the car is pointed. If required, the ABS module applies the brakes to correct the error.
You have two choices, do without ESP or transplant all the wiring out of the C2. I guess there might be a third? To my knowledge the information from the Angle Position Indicator in the COMS2000 and the yaw rate sensor go directly to the ABS. The ESP COMS2000 has an extra blue connector used by the API. I believe this wiring goes directly back to the ABS module. Sorry but at this point I cant confirm that. But you could check to see if the colour coded wires from the yaw rate sensor and the COMS blue connector are present at the ABS module connector. If so it's possible to remove just the associated wiring and transplant it into the C3. It's possible. LOL.
The good news its the wiring for the dash button only goes back to the BSI and should already be installed. :D
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