changing a timing belt on a TU5JP4 1.6 petrol 16 valve

On my engine, the crank pulley on the TU5 has a tab on the bottom of it, which should line up with the tab on the engine case at the bottom of the crank pulley. If they line up, when the cams are pinned, then your at top dead centre of cylinder 1, and its in time. My reason for not pinning the crank is that sometimes it is necessary to back the crank slightly to grab the new belt tooth correctly so that the run down to the crank is tight; this is where people often make a mistake and leave a one tooth slack in the belt. I say this based on decades of timing belt changes on various vehicles. Of course, pin it if you like but if you have to back the pulley to grab that belt tooth your going to have to pull it, at least temporarily.

glend1450 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 5:32 am You can use 8mm drill bits to lock the TU5 cams (stick the chuck end into the cam sprocket hole). The crank lock is not really necessary, just use a good bright witness mark on the crank pulley and case before you remove the old belt. Your old belt may have witness marks on it already. I find transferring witness marks to the new belt very helpful.

I was going to use either bolts or the back end of drill bits to lock the cams anyway.
As for the locking iof the flywheel, i have been doing this job long enough to rmeember the times when there was no such thing as locking either the cam or the crank! As you said it relied on mechs just lining up the marks. So I'm not scared of not being able to lock everything as, as you say, I will ensure I either find the marks or make my own. I also appreciate the thing about unlocking the crank even if just momentarily just to "pick up" the belt in the correct place.
Once I have turned the engine over a few times I will know if the marks are still lining up or not and will be able to correct it if they don't.
We have owned the car since it came to us with 10k on the clock and I am the only perdon to have worked on it except for a clutch change. So if deffo has not been done before. It doesn't get driven stupidly nor does it do lots of short trips. The annual mileage is lowish as we are both retired, long miles are done in our Discovery.

Ozvtr wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:22 pm Be careful using this method.I.E. not pinning the flywheel. It relies on the person who did it before you having done it right, there are no guarantees of that.
As I said, one of the cars that I did was 3 teeth out! Yes, the car did run fine but if you are going to do it, why not do it right?
Given the age of these cars, the timing belt should have been changed at least once by now. True, it's possible this belt may have never been changed and it has factory timing, but I don't know that.

As you'll see from my last post this car has deffo never had it changed so it is still as the factory set it up. We've had it from 10k and I do all the work on it except changing the clutch.
I'll be careful and do it right! don't worry. but thanks for expressing your concern and your reasoning behind it. I aim to lock all three but if locking the crank/flywheel for some reason proves impossible I will rely on the marks that !'ll make before starting. Cheers.

It's not that hard to pin the flywheel, just a little laborious. One end of the engine to check the fly wheel then back to the other end to turn the crank shaft (repeat). Yes it a pain in the (you know what).
Frankly the hardest thing, is fabricating a pin to go into the crank case in the first place!

One of the main reasons that I do my own work is that the quality of "professional" work is(was) so poor!!! I am a technician (avionics) by "trade" so I have a technical background. The electronic and mechanical work doesn't phase me but I still would pay someone to do the work...IF THEY WERE COMPETENT! Unfortunately I seem to have mostly found incompetent tradespeople. So if I begin a new "project" I have to assume that the last person who worked on it was an idiot. NOW, I AM NOT SAYING ALL TRADESPEOPLE ARE INCOMPETENT! I've had some bad experiences...but that's my problem and I'll deal with it in my way. Your "mileage" may differ.

Yes, it is very rare that the belt lines up exactly with the teeth of the sprockets and either the camshafts or the crankshaft needs to be moved a little. I have not found any manual or tutorial that tells you what to do if they don't line up. "Officially" that never happens.
I use the "which way gets me the closest" method. And yes, that involves "unpinning" at least one of the shafts and moving it.
And, like you, I have dealt with many makes and models of cars. The problem still seems to be the same, the belts don't line up. (sigh)
Yes, most manufacturers do have a mark on the crankshaft and camshaft sprocket that lines up on the crank case and head. The Citroens are the first engines that I have worked on that get "pinned". But PSA do things a bit differently. Oh well, what are you going to do?

As the old saying goes; "There is more than one way to skin a cat". That goes for building engines as well as working on them.

One of the problems with commenting here is that I have no idea of the skill levels of members asking questions. While answering every question with "What do you know about cars?" gets to the point...it comes across as a bit rude.

Ozvtr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:23 am It's not that hard to pin the flywheel, just a little laborious. One end of the engine to check the fly wheel then back to the other end to turn the crank shaft (repeat). Yes it a pain in the (you know what).
Frankly the hardest thing, is fabricating a pin to go into the crank case in the first place!

One of the main reasons that I do my own work is that the quality of "professional" work is(was) so poor!!! I am a technician (avionics) by "trade" so I have a technical background. The electronic and mechanical work doesn't phase me but I still would pay someone to do the work...IF THEY WERE COMPETENT! Unfortunately I seem to have mostly found incompetent tradespeople. So if I begin a new "project" I have to assume that the last person who worked on it was an idiot. NOW, I AM NOT SAYING ALL TRADESPEOPLE ARE INCOMPETENT! I've had some bad experiences...but that's my problem and I'll deal with it in my way. Your "mileage" may differ.

Yes, it is very rare that the belt lines up exactly with the teeth of the sprockets and either the camshafts or the crankshaft needs to be moved a little. I have not found any manual or tutorial that tells you what to do if they don't line up. "Officially" that never happens.
I use the "which way gets me the closest" method. And yes, that involves "unpinning" at least one of the shafts and moving it.
And, like you, I have dealt with many makes and models of cars. The problem still seems to be the same, the belts don't line up. (sigh)
Yes, most manufacturers do have a mark on the crankshaft and camshaft sprocket that lines up on the crank case and head. The Citroens are the first engines that I have worked on that get "pinned". But PSA do things a bit differently. Oh well, what are you going to do?

As the old saying goes; "There is more than one way to skin a cat". That goes for building engines as well as working on them.

One of the problems with commenting here is that I have no idea of the skill levels of members asking questions. While answering every question with "What do you know about cars?" gets to the point...it comes across as a bit rude.

I am sorry that you have had such bad luck with tradesmen. I too have had the same, especaily with a main dealer Triumph garage who simply could not get a Triumph Dolomite Sprint engine to work after fitting a new short engine. I am not an engineer by trade although I come from a family of engineers indeed my great grandfather owned possibly the first garage in Hull and he owned a Stanley Steamer, hence my handle.
But I have maintained and tuned my own cars ever since I was 17 so for 50 years now. I also started and ran the Wessex Kit Car Club so have been deeply involved in building and maintaining kit cars. I think I have only owned a handful of cars that I have NOT tuned in some way, So changing cams is very run-of-the-mill for me. The Haynes manual suggests welding a 90 mm length of 6mm rod or stud to the end of a bit of welding wire to insert in the 'ole in the fly wheel. They even put in a picture of this weird and wonderful weapon!
I think the reason why timing belts do not seem to line up is to do with the amount of stretch that inevitably happens once they start to be used in earnest.
So what I am going to do is to line up the cams and lock them with
whatever can be made to fit then I will fiddle around and try to make something lock the crank. If I can't I will just pull like mad on the crank at the pulley end and make marks on both it and the block, before removing the belt and replacing it. Using the marks. If after rotating the engine a few times and tightening the tensioner as it should be, the marks still line up, I will be happy. But although it is said that belts never stretch, I find that hard to believe, which is why I feel that my method may well leave me with marks that don't line up, as I will have made them using an old and stretched belt, which a new one will never be able to line up with.
SO, what I might do is find a way of counting the actual teeth on the belt between two places on the crank wheel and the camshaft wheel, then match that with the teeth on the new belt. To me that means I can't get any teeth out. If that makes sense. I'll mark the old belt and then see if I can transfer those marks to the new belt, counting the teeth on that. I have changed cambelts before where they come ready marked like this.
Between these two I think I'll be ok.
I do not know now when I'll be doing this as the weather over here is terrible at the moment for people like me who have to work outside. Also we have to go to London fairly soon for a visa interview and that means we have to take the Pluriel cos of the ULEZ. (The other vehicle we use being a Diesel Discovery 2 Land Rover!)
Thanks again for the chat!

Sounds like you won't have any problems sorting it out.

I had a garage replace the V6 engine in my sons utility. It put a con-rod through the side of the block! I do not have the facilities to remove and install a V6 engine from a truck!! My son sourced the engine and the fellow installed it. He said it needed a clutch adapter..fair enough, but the alarm bells should have started ringing!! Anyway the guy could not get the engine running and said it would cost more if we wanted to proceed. I asked if the engine and all other "bits" were installed on the truck, he said yes. I said I'd sort it from there.
The guy was trying to get the engine running with the engine ECU that came with the "new"(not new) engine. Of course that ECU was not paired with the immobilizer in the truck! So I put the "old" ECU back in, and the engine ran. HOWEVER now it was in "limp mode". Hmm. Anyway, long story short, the new engine was not the same as the old engine. In the very least the flywheel and cam reluctor lobes were different (there were a lot of other differences but they were irrelevant). So I got the "new" engine ECU coded into the trucks immobilizer and away it went. I now have a fresh hatred of General Motors products!! LOL!

If you get the time please take a few "snaps" and post them on the site. Doesn't have to be a tutorial. Just let us know how you got on and if there was anything "interesting" that happened.
Good luck.