Cam belt a tooth out?

Hi all,
Amateur mechanic here,
Thought I'd try my luck at doing the cam belt( how hard could it be)!
Tried to mark the crank and cam with tip-x but on my drive and it started raining so everything smudged, there was a little movement in the flywheel after I'd locked it (I thought),
Got it all back together, syarted her up ticked over nicely I thought, reversed fine, then when I went to drive forward it had no guts... so checked out this forum and the World Wide Web and found out I'm a tooth out probs, so back up off and hey ho here we go... another 5 attempts at adjust and putting back together and the same thing happening I thought i may have damaged the belt/ tensioner so bought another one fitted it, trying to lock cam and flywheel, and still can't get it right, I'm totally gutted as I've gone from new alt to coil pack then ecu doner now this... I'm wondering whether to take no.1 spark plug out find tdc with cam and flywheel!!! Heavens above Its been a nightmare...
(Sorry in advance)

Hi

I don't think finding TDC will help you.

The cam belt isn't timed at TDC. You should use the factory timing marks and the factory flywheel locking point for your engine to fit a cam belt. Then follow the instructions for setting the belt tensioner correctly.

The timing belt kits that include a tensioner have detailed instructions on how to fit the belt and set the tensioner.

You may have the belt not tensioned or timed correctly.

The Haynes manual (here) has the information about timing marks and flywheel locking on the nearly engines.

Hi Arturo,
Thanks for getting back to me,
I've used the 8mm drill dit or m10 bolt for the cam and I've fashioned a 6mm threaded rod to go into flywheel, (it's a shame the flywheel hasn't got a hole just a recess) . Where are the factory timing marks on the engine, there's an ident/ line along the crank which I've used to mark into the engine when I've locked the flywheel and cam. I've also been using the Haynes manual too.
I have followed the tensioning instructions, placing tensioner on with the pin in, tightening nut, rotating engine 4x, setting the tension at the notch near the top of the tensioner and tightening the nut, testing the belt between the cam and the crank with a 90 degree twist between finger and thumb...
I had a look at the belt when engine was locked and there was no way I could get the belt over another tooth to tighten it, really confused...

Charles winter wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:23 pm Hi Arturo,
Thanks for getting back to me,
I've used the 8mm drill dit or m10 bolt for the cam and I've fashioned a 6mm threaded rod to go into flywheel, (it's a shame the flywheel hasn't got a hole just a recess) . Where are the factory timing marks on the engine, there's an ident/ line along the crank which I've used to mark into the engine when I've locked the flywheel and cam. I've also been using the Haynes manual too.
I have followed the tensioning instructions, placing tensioner on with the pin in, tightening nut, rotating engine 4x, setting the tension at the notch near the top of the tensioner and tightening the nut, testing the belt between the cam and the crank with a 90 degree twist between finger and thumb...
I had a look at the belt when engine was locked and there was no way I could get the belt over another tooth to tighten it, really confused...

You should be fitting the 'automatic tensioner'.

The old manual tensioner has been replaced and shouldn't be available to buy. The finger and thumb twiddle is for the old manual tensioner.

The new automatic tensioner uses a hex key (allen key) to set, so you can see if you have a new or old tensioner because only the new has the hex hole in it.

I would suggest you check which tensioner you have, then read the haynes that pertains to the type of tensioner you have.
My suggestion is to only use the automatic tensioner and the haynes instructions for this are 'Refitting - later SOHC engines with automatic tensioner' as your car bio says 1.4 8v engine.

The factory timing marks are the holes you mentioned and their corresponding drill bits.

I am not sure about the flywheel 'recess', I always thought it was a hole, you put a bent 6mm bar through the housing and into the flywheel hole. But it may be a later modification?

That's the one I'm using with the hex hole.

Hi Arfur,
I am not sure about the flywheel 'recess', I always thought it was a hole, you put a bent 6mm bar through the housing and into the flywheel hole. But it may be a later modification?
the place where you put the 6mm threaded rod doesn't go all the way through the flywheel on mine so it just breaks the surface.
if the car runs and reverses fine do you think I may have damaged any valves?
I suppose I should just keep trying till I get it right, I thought about putting the front up on axle stands and then I could do the belt and start her up to see if she'll rev up in first!! what do you reckon...

You can not use #1 TDC to set timing on PSA engines! Well...not unless you know exactly what you are doing.

With the flywheel correctly pinned, all 4 pistons are halfway up the cylinders! This alows you to install a cylinder head and cam shaft with the valves extended in random positions and not strike the tops of the pistons. Incase you forget to pin the cam shaft pully before head installation.
EDIT: For future reference, when the flywheel on the TU3JP (KFV) engine is pinned, cylinders 1 & 4 are at top dead center.

There is only a notch in the flywheel not a hole.

PLUS, #1 piston in PSA engines is closest to the flywheel, NOT the pulley! If you are not familiar with these engines and dont follow instructions you could really stuff things up.

I dont understand how you can be a whole tooth out. I can understand 1/2 a tooth or so but not a whole tooth. How do you know you are a whole tooth out? Are you using the lines on the timing belt as an indicator? Or are you using the vernacular "a tooth" and it's not ACTUALLY a tooth out?

Belts which are not OEM can be out by a small but anoying amount. IF you are absolutely sure its the correct belt, unpin the cam shaft sprocket and move it to the closest tooth. This distance should be less than 1/2 a tooth!

If you have the correct belt, the pointer on the tensioner should point to the notch in the flange when the belt is under tension. If you cant get the pointer to line up, you probably have the wrong belt.

Thanks for that, I think you're right I should say it's half a tooth out!
this is the last belt I've put on
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152630311491
Gates Timing Cam Belt Kit For Citroen Fiat Peugeot Tensioner Pulley K015575XS...
17mm 104 teeth
I have noticed that i could still move the cam a tiny amount when the 8mm drill bit was in there which would definitely be a half a tooth.
But I thought I'd compensated for this by moving the cam as far forward as it would go with the 8mm bit in there and the flywheel locked in place from the clockwise rotation on the crank (does any of that make sense)?
So if its half a tooth out i adjust from the cam not the crank. Which way do I go, back or forward?
And probably most importantly how should I use the 2 line marks on the new belt?Many thanks for your reply, it is very helpful for me..

I'm not sure but there should be one line closest to the writing and one line by itself.

If you count the number of teeth between the lines, there is more on one direction than the other. The "short" side goes straight from the cam to the crank. The "long" side goes around the tensioner.

The line by itself goes to the bottom, at the most 6 o'clock position. Work counter clockwise, over the camshaft sprocket and around the tensioner. The line by the writing should line up at the most 12 O'clock position.

Make your "best guess" as to which tooth to align the belt on, remove the locking pins, tension the tensioner and turn the engine over 4 times. Put the flywheel locking pin in and see how close the hole in the cam shaft sprocket aligns with the hole in the head. It may or may not be possible to get it closer. The theory is that by turning it over, the belt is tensioned into the correct configuration. You may gain that extra length with the belt under tension.

While theoretically true, I don't think being 1/2 a tooth out will make much difference to the performance of the engine BUT if you can get the locking pins back in after tensioning the belt, it has to be in the correct position.

cheers Ozvtr
you're a legend,
Going to give it a go again tomorrow.
i do have a recording of the engine running if that is helpful?