HDI starting and running problem!

Questions specifically about a Diesel powered C3 (usually engine or fuel related problems)
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Diesel engine related problems
Think: Diesel engine, diesel fuel system, diesel injectors and glow plugs
My Name: sniggy2112

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Hi, new to this forum, new to Citroens and new to diesel.

I recently purchased an 03 C3 HDI SX 16v. Battery was flat when i went to view, the guy charged it up and test drive was ok. (shouldn't really have bought it after that but the low tax band won me over and i needed a car!)
The next day it was difficult to start so i instantly thought the battery was the problem. Took it to Halfords and got a replacement and a much better one at that. Since then (2 days) i'm still having difficulty starting (from being left overnight and on leaving work after a 9 hour shift) and i'm also getting intermittent engine cut outs when approaching junctions, usually after changing down the gears.
When changing up the gears i also get a lack of power, from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd, after i bring the clutch back up. Once the car has ran a bit all of this stops. Now i know it's not my driving as i've driven for a long time, could it be the clutch going? I've read that my car uses Glow Plugs with it being diesel but no glow plug indicator lights up on the dash at any time. Owners manual states to leave key in the starter position until 'Diesel Preheater Lamp goes out' but mine doesn't come on at all. Could the glow plugs be the root of my troubles? ABS light also comes on whenever i hit a bump but i'm going to assume a sensor is being knocked there. Car is overdue a service and will be going in for one next week so i'm hoping it's just that thats the issue!!
Thanks
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My Name: C3CAR

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Posts: 2610
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (02)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
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Welcome to the forum sniggy2112

There are a couple of posts in the diesel section on poor running HDi 8v and 16v, they will be worth reading if the service doesn't fix your problems. (Don't forget to change the fuel filter)


questions-about-a-diesel-powered-citroe ... -t145.html
This post deals with a lack of power at time in a 16v engine like yours. (The turbo electrovalve)

questions-about-a-diesel-powered-citroe ... -t258.html
This post from snowie about his EGR valve may be useful

and if the EGR valve info is useful, then this may be of use too
tips-for-a-diesel-powered-citroen-c3-f6 ... -t289.html


sniggy2112 wrote:I've read that my car uses Glow Plugs with it being diesel but no glow plug indicator lights up on the dash at any time. Owners manual states to leave key in the starter position until 'Diesel Preheater Lamp goes out' but mine doesn't come on at all. Could the glow plugs be the root of my troubles?
My advice is forget everything you know about glow plugs from an engine pre HDi. The glow plugs are used differently in an HDi engine and are unlikely to be a starting problem under normal UK weather conditions.

You are unlikely to see the pre-heater warning lamp ever illuminate, but this doesn't mean the glow plugs are inactive, they are just doing their job in the background.
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My Name: Arfur Dent

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Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (52)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 100000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
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Car is overdue a service and will be going in for one next week so i'm hoping it's just that thats the issue!!
Hopefully, that is all that's required. Keep us posted on how you get on.


For starting the diesel C3 the starter speed has to meet a minimum in order for the ECU to allow fuel into the engine. A poor starter motor may not be able to turn the engine fast enough to meet the minimum threshold. Its worth getting the starter, alternator and battery setup checked if you still have problems starting as any one of these 3 may be at fault.

Starting also depends on fuel pressure in the common rail. If the pressure is too low, the ECU prevents fuel from leaving the injectors. A faulty injector(s) can cause low pressure in the common rail (there is a pressure sensor attached to the rail), to diagnose that sort of faulty injector, a leak-off test is useful.
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My Name: sniggy2112

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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:04 pm

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Cheers guys, got a mechanic checking it over on Friday so i'll see what's what when he's done!
My Name: sniggy2112

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Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:04 pm

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Hi all, so I had the car plugged into a diagnostics machine and this is the result;
Permanent fault - cylinder 1 injector circuit injection time correction outside limits.

Permanent fault - clutch switch signal, no signal or incoherent.

Intermittent fault - injection system supply relay circuit, relay stuck or occasional cut-off.

Intermittent fault - speed setting requested of fan, fan speed inconsistency.

Permanent fault - no resetting by accelerometer - no periodic injector resetting.

Intermittent fault - vehicle speed signal, speed received by CAN incorrect.

Permanent fault - vehicle speed information, incorrect value received.

Lot of work or are they all connected?
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My Name: C3CAR

Guru
Posts: 2610
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (02)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
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Been thanked: 88 times

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Hi sniggy2112

That's quite a list,
Lot of work or are they all connected?
It looks like they are all connected by the engine ECU.


Can you say if the car has ABS braking system?

Thanks
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My Name: C3CAR

Guru
Posts: 2610
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (02)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
Has thanked: 144 times
Been thanked: 88 times

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Permanent fault - cylinder 1 injector circuit injection time correction outside limits.
Permanent fault - no resetting by accelerometer - no periodic injector resetting.
These look like Engine ECU to the Injector wiring/connector/ECU/Injector.

Intermittent fault - injection system supply relay circuit, relay stuck or occasional cut-off.
Power to the Engine ECU.

Intermittent fault - speed setting requested of fan, fan speed inconsistency.
Engine cooling fan, the signal to say the fan is running goes back to the Engine ECU

Intermittent fault - vehicle speed signal, speed received by CAN incorrect.

Permanent fault - vehicle speed information, incorrect value received.
On cars with ABS, the vehicle speed information is taken from the ABS wheel sensor via the ABS ECU and sent to the Engine ECU.
Permanent fault - clutch switch signal, no signal or incoherent.
Clutch pedal signal to the Engine ECU so it knows when you are 'coasting'

Battery was flat when i went to view
The C3 doesn't like being jump started (or boosted). Engine ECU damage can occur. With a history of poor battery, it may have been jumped in the past.

My first checks would be to check the battery voltage and the alternator output (charging) voltage. You are looking for over 12v for the battery and 14.4v for the alternator output (check at the battery is easiest). Poor voltages upset the ECUs

If the two readings are good, then disconnect the battery and remove the 3 Engine ECU connectors and give them a spray with some circuit cleaner. Inspect the 3 plugs for anything obvious (like the latching is broken). As this is a common point where all the faults converge and its quick and easy to do.

The next step would be to clear the codes (or attempt to) clear them. The intermittent ones will clear but may come back. To clear the codes use a Actia Lexia tool connected to the BSI Diagnostic socket. If you don't have access to Lexia, then maybe just road test it. the Lexia tool does crop up on eBay

And there is a reading topic for Lexia here

After that, and its still not fixed, I would look into finding which connector or cable is also common to those parts that report a fault. Let me know how you get on and if you need that information, I will look into it for you.
My Name: sniggy2112

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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:04 pm

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Hi, car does have ABS, which also has an issue which I forgot to mention -rear LH wheel speed sensor signal open circuit, short circuit to positive, short circuit to earth.
ABS light is pretty much permanently on now but I'm assuming that's probably an easy fix? Battery is brand new as didn't trust the flat one that was already in the car and it's a decent mid range one from halfords. To be fair I'm not mechanically minded so not sure if all these faults are easily sorted or are going to be expensive. Diag tool didn't bring up any faults with the ECU itself so my way of thinking is that the injector is the primary culprit and that these inconsistent speed values and such will be no more once said injector is sorted?
User avatar
My Name: C3CAR

Guru
Posts: 2610
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:01 am
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (02)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
Has thanked: 144 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Post

Hi, car does have ABS, which also has an issue which I forgot to mention -rear LH wheel speed sensor signal open circuit, short circuit to positive, short circuit to earth.
Ah, nice. I would get this one done first as it may knock off a few of those "vehicle speed information/vehicle speed signal" which the ECU uses to make injection calculations.....

ABS light is pretty much permanently on now but I'm assuming that's probably an easy fix?
It would be worth looking for damage to the wheel sensor and its associated wiring and taking it from there.

Battery is brand new as didn't trust the flat one that was already in the car and it's a decent mid range one from halfords.
Yes, but... DO check the alternator output (at the battery, with the engine running and under load of headlights and rear heater and without the lights and rear heater). Its a simple check and can save you lots of head scratching later. A faulty alternator/regulator can kill a battery and upset the electrics. While you are there, just check the battery voltage too (engine not running), what have you got to loose?

To be fair I'm not mechanically minded so not sure if all these faults are easily sorted or are going to be expensive
That's why I suggested the cheap and easy things first. Once the easy and cheap things are out of the way you will have a clearer view on the cost and expertise required to clear the fault as only expensive or difficult things are left. The error codes you gave (applies to all error codes) don't tell you what needs replacing, but its more a case of which bits to test to find the eventual culprit.

Diag tool didn't bring up any faults with the ECU itself
Is there an error code for a faulty ECU?

You have a clue to your problems in the long list of ECU related error codes.
(The code descriptions you gave should have 'P' numbers relating to them, having the 'P' numbers can make looking up the error codes a bit quicker)

so my way of thinking is that the injector is the primary culprit and that these inconsistent speed values and such will be no more once said injector is sorted?
I couldn't disagree more.

Your codes relating to speed:
Intermittent fault - vehicle speed signal, speed received by CAN incorrect.
Permanent fault - vehicle speed information, incorrect value received.
are VEHICLE speed, not engine speed, nothing to do with an injector.

Injectors are not cheap. Throwing money at the Citroen C3 HDi 1.4 16v is not the most cost effective way of dealing with it, there are just too many systems operating to get that lucky.

A 'leak-off' test can show up faulty injectors - well worth doing before buying and coding in a new injector.

By all means, change the injector and get it coded to the ECU, then please let us know how you get on.

All your faults taken together all point to the Engine ECU area, not an injector, BUT I wouldn't condemn the ECU until the other check and tests are completed as the ECU cost is expensive and may well not fix the faults. I would focus on the things I said in the previous post and take it from there.


The ever useful Haynes manual is available on Amazon.co.uk and has some good wiring diagrams along with the procedures for most repairs you would ever need to do.


and a link to a Citroen C3 HDi 1.4 16v 2003 Diesel Injector for sale -->Citroen C3 HDi 1.4 16v Diesel Injector (on eBay)
My Name: sniggy2112

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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:04 pm

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Thanks so much for the help and believe me, you have helped a lot. I've got a lot more understanding of what I'm looking at (and for) now.
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