battery light flashing, hdi engine not starting

Questions specifically about a Diesel powered C3 (usually engine or fuel related problems)
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Diesel engine related problems
Think: Diesel engine, diesel fuel system, diesel injectors and glow plugs
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My Name: Arfur Dent

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Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:47 pm
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (52)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 100000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
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fuel filter citroen c3 hdi 8v
fuel filter citroen c3 hdi 8v
What's this B under the fuel filter. I have been wiggling the filter around to get the rocker cover removed, so might have caused a line or connector to become loose.
I think it is the fuel heater option. Not fitted to all models.

4 is the 'water in the diesel' sensor.
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My Name: Arfur Dent

Guru
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:47 pm
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (52)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 100000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
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high pressure pump and common fuel rail on a Citroen C3
high pressure pump and common fuel rail on a Citroen C3
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My Name: micheldeman

Contributor
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:13 pm
Model: C3 Pluriel - with or without roof
Year: 2004 (54)
Engine Size: 1.4
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: VTR+
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)

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ok, thanks for the extensive answers.
Is this a correct product to purchase if I want to hook up the pluriel to get into fault codes etc?
https://www.autoobd2.co.uk/wholesale/che ... GwodrqgBTg

Looks like the cheapest I can find and probably they are all the same clones?
Oops, didn't notice the shipping costs...
So probably will check ebay. Safer to buy from too.
User avatar
My Name: Arfur Dent

Guru
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:47 pm
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (52)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 100000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 135 times

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micheldeman wrote:ok, thanks for the extensive answers.
Is this a correct product to purchase if I want to hook up the pluriel to get into fault codes etc?
https://www.autoobd2.co.uk/wholesale/che ... GwodrqgBTg

Looks like the cheapest I can find and probably they are all the same clones?
Oops, didn't notice the shipping costs...
So probably will check ebay. Safer to buy from too.
I can't say anything about various websites that sell clones and I don't know if they are any good or even ship the items.

I have used ebay (click here for ebay) and found the feedback and money back guarantee very useful.

I have also found [url=ttp://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00YWROA44/ ... troenc3-21]Amazon (click here for amazon)[/url] good for purchasing.

We also have a lexia topic which can give you an insight into what you need to run lexia and a bit on getting it working.
citroen-c3-tips/lexia-and-obd-diagnosti ... -t655.html
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My Name: micheldeman

Contributor
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:13 pm
Model: C3 Pluriel - with or without roof
Year: 2004 (54)
Engine Size: 1.4
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: VTR+
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)

Post

I have read somewhere that the hpp (high pressure pump) should build up a pressure to the rail/injectors around 200 bar during cranking, 300 bars at idle and anything from 1200 to 1800 bars running.
I found that my simple reader can read live data including the fuel pressure however in PSI
Before starting, I can read 30-40 psi which is around 2-2.5 bar.
When cranking, it goes up to 120PSI which is only around 8 bar, which is way too low.
Also the pressure goes rapidly from 120 back to 30-40 after the engine stops.
So, there must be a major leak. There's no diesel around the fuel lines, so I suspect that the injector that I have had out to replace the seal for, might have got damaged, letting the diesel flow towards the overflow return lines.

From the other article:
Faulty injector/s

Probably the biggest result of injector failure is due to the injectors having excessive return flow or back leakage. This is due to worn parts which allow excessive fuel to go through the diesel injector and to return back to the tank or fuel system. This causes a drop in rail pressure (see "low fuel pressure") which results in hard starting or not starting at all.

I must admit that I have removed the top part from the injector before I removed it completely from the head. So will take out that injector again and see if I can get it under pressure and test. I also had to use a spanner to lift and hammer it out from the head.

Or there may still be air in the pump itself that doesn't want to come out.

I have read about bump starting, but that involves risks for the timing belt?
User avatar
My Name: Arfur Dent

Guru
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:47 pm
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (52)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 100000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 135 times

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micheldeman wrote:I have read somewhere that the hpp (high pressure pump) should build up a pressure to the rail/injectors around 200 bar during cranking, 300 bars at idle and anything from 1200 to 1800 bars running.
The delphi units have a higher pressure than the other HDi injectors, but 1800 sounds about the right ballpark figure.
micheldeman wrote:Also the pressure goes rapidly from 120 back to 30-40 after the engine stops.
So, there must be a major leak.
The system will quickly depressurise the common rail by opening the leakoff function of the pump sending the excess fuel back to the tank.
micheldeman wrote:Probably the biggest result of injector failure is due to the injectors having excessive return flow or back leakage. This is due to worn parts which allow excessive fuel to go through the diesel injector and to return back to the tank or fuel system. This causes a drop in rail pressure (see "low fuel pressure") which results in hard starting or not starting at all.
The easiest and least intrusive way to test for excessive leakoff is to do a leak off test, you can test all 4 injectors at the same time.
This is the leak off topic (here).
micheldeman wrote:I must admit that I have removed the top part from the injector before I removed it completely from the head. So will take out that injector again and see if I can get it under pressure and test. I also had to use a spanner to lift and hammer it out from the head.
They can be difficult to get out :( It may be damaged and would explain a few things.
micheldeman wrote:I have read about bump starting, but that involves risks for the timing belt?
The timing belt is at no more risk from a bump than a jump or normal start. The reasons timing belts break is because they don't get changed when they should. Bump starting is for starting the engine when the starter motor can't turn the engine over due to a flat battery or failed starter/solenoid. If you starter motor system can turn the engine at a reasonable speed, I can't see any bump starting helping you.
micheldeman wrote:Or there may still be air in the pump itself that doesn't want to come out.
If you didn't remove the common rail, I don't think you would get air into the pump, but its building up pressure so I don't see its a pump issue.

Is yours the 8 valve or 16 valve C3?
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User avatar
My Name: Arfur Dent

Guru
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:47 pm
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (52)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 100000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 135 times

Post

For the Bosch/Siemens system, I have
the high pressure fuel varies between 220 and 1500 bar
and on the Delphi (16v) system, I have 225 Bar at idle (768 RPM)
Fuel pressure measured on a Citroen C3 HDi 16v at idel
Fuel pressure measured on a Citroen C3 HDi 16v at idel
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My Name: micheldeman

Contributor
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:13 pm
Model: C3 Pluriel - with or without roof
Year: 2004 (54)
Engine Size: 1.4
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: VTR+
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)

Post

Thanks again for all the answers.

What worries me is that the pressure is just about 8 bar when cranking the engine, while battery is fully charged and turning the engine at more than enough speed to start. It should be around 200 bar.
It's an 8 valve engine. I will go through the link about the testing of the injectors for leaks and let you know.

Is it correct when I say that the hpp depressurises back to the tank through the fuel in line, not the fuel return line as the hpp is only connected to the fuel in line and not the return fuel line?

The timing belt has been replaced only a few thousand miles ago, so shouldn't cause any additional risk to (bump) starting, but as you said, if the engine is turning fast enough, there's no reason to bump start it.

Will see and update tomorrow again.

thanks,

Michael
User avatar
My Name: Arfur Dent

Guru
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:47 pm
Model: C3 2002-2005, Original shape model
Year: 2002 (52)
Engine Size: 1.4 (16v)
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 100000
Trim Level: Exclusive
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)
Engine name: DV4 16-valve diesel (90 PS)
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 135 times

Post

micheldeman wrote:Thanks again for all the answers.

What worries me is that the pressure is just about 8 bar when cranking the engine, while battery is fully charged and turning the engine at more than enough speed to start. It should be around 200 bar.
It's an 8 valve engine.
I will try and get a live data of a good one cranking pressure to compare.
micheldeman wrote:Is it correct when I say that the hpp depressurises back to the tank through the fuel in line, not the fuel return line as the hpp is only connected to the fuel in line and not the return fuel line?
The high pressure pump is connected to a return line so it can depressurise the system.

From an exploded diagram of a High Pressure Pump on a Siemens common rail system.
" a ":fuel inlet(low pressure)
" b ":high pressure fuel outlet(to the common injection rail)
" c ":return to fuel tank
High Pressure Pump on the Common Rail System
High Pressure Pump on the Common Rail System
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My Name: micheldeman

Contributor
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:13 pm
Model: C3 Pluriel - with or without roof
Year: 2004 (54)
Engine Size: 1.4
Fuel Type: Diesel
Mileage: 140000
Trim Level: VTR+
Gearbox: Manual 5 speed
DPF: No
LHD or RHD: RHD (UK)

Post

I have taken out the injector and brought it for a test, which failed they said.
My reasoning is that the engine was running before and not too bad either. It always started immediately, it was just that the injector seal was leaking and needed replacement.

Citroen C3 HDi injector diagnostic printout
Citroen C3 HDi injector diagnostic printout
Print-out, it doesn't say much to me.

If my reader is correct in saying that the high pressure pump is only producing 8bar, then there's something wrong with the HPP, but I have never touch that pump, so might air still be the problem?

I am about to buy a complete set of return lines, these aren't too expensive and may sort out the air bleeding problem.

I have ordered meanwhile a lexia 3 reader and will have that delivered in a few days time.

I am first going to place back the injector again with a new seal ring.
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